Tuesday, June 27, 2006

What would make ID scientific.

Judge Jones was very clear.ID is not science. Where is the research, where are the testable hypotheses? My view is that claiming to be able to detect the effects of the supernatural is an inherently bogus approach, and supernatural science is an oxymoron.

Am I wrong? Is there ID research, planned or happening. Does anyone plan to test an ID hypothesis, if such a concept exists. Call it my challenge to Intelligent Design. Show me the Emperor is really wearing clothes.

24 comments:

jujuquisp said...

Lots of people believe in god. That has been studied many times and should provide enough evidence that ID is, in fact, not only science, but a reality.

jujuquisp said...

Actually, I was just kidding. It is impossible for ID to be science.

blipey said...

It may be that I am not smart enough or creative enough to come up with an answer--something that is quite likely.

I will think on how to frame the questions correctly--but the answers I am interested in are certainly along the lines of the title of this thread.

At the moment, I can only think that it would take testing a miracle to provide evidence for ID. Plainly not something that can be done.

I would be very interested in hearing if anyone has done a convincing side-step of this problem. How can you test ID without testing miracles?

Mark Frank said...

I just want a hypothesis about who or what the designer is and how they implemented it. Then someone can test the hypothesis by looking for evidence and examining its plausability.

Chris Hyland said...

All I want is what kind of assumptions you can make based on the fact you cant say who the designer is, his/her motivations, his/her abilities and when he/she might have been doing the designing.

Rich Hughes said...

Come on IDers.. where are you?

If this was a "flaws in darwins" thread it'd be like flies on shit.

blipey said...

chris hyland:

All I want is what kind of assumptions you can make based on the fact you cant say who the designer is, his/her motivations, his/her abilities and when he/she might have been doing the designing.

I think this would be a fabulous discussion. Here are a few specific questions. Speculations don't even have to be fully formed IMO. It would be informative if IDers could enlighten us as to what we should be looking for in light of their supposition that we can't make any suppositions.

1. Not knowing anything about the designer's purpose, do we know if we are a final product? How?

1b. If we are not a final product, how do we know? Does this imply that we are evolving? How do we know?

2. Not knowing anything about the designer's origins, where did he get the raw material to design us? Was it already here? How do we know?

2b. Did the designer also design the raw material we come from? How do we know?

2c. If he used extant material, how did he alter it so that we can tell?

2d. If he created the raw material, how did he leave his imprint so that we can investigate his workings?

JohnADavison said...

There is no need for an extant designer and no evidence for one either. However it is quite impossible for a rational mind to observe the living world and deny as the Darwinians always have that one or more intelligences once existed. There is no place in the scientific community for such mentalites. This is fully supported when one examines their chief spokespersons, Gould, Mayr, Provine and Dawkins, not a scientist in the lot. They are all nothing but clever wordsmiths arrogantly imposing their congenital atheism on an unsuspecting naive and similarly predisposed audience. The Fundamentalists too have their arrogant leaders doing the same thing. Both factions are and always have been dead wrong. That is why I am so very popular with them both. Needless to say -

I love it so!

Tim Hague said...

If the ID crowd devoted their research to studying the only known designer - human beings - and then looked at how those designers came up with their designs then I think it could be called scientific.

You never know - by looking at the output from human genetic design they may even come up with something resembling a working design detection method at the genetic level. Although I'm not going to hold my breath waiting.

Rich Hughes said...

Or.. you could just redefine science...

*cough cough*

JohnADavison said...

There is no hope for any of you homozygpus atheists. You are congenitally stone deaf to what Einstein called "the music of the spheres." I hear it loud and clear. Naturally -

I love it so!

Jeannot said...

JAD, you mean that no designer prescribed evolution?
Was it "self-prescribed"?

JohnADavison said...

jeannot

The designers are dead. Get it? Probably not!

I love it so!

Lord Timothy said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Lord Timothy said...

"Actually, I was just kidding. It is impossible for ID to be science."

Then Science is a pretty pathetic method of gaining knowledge about our universe.

Alan Fox said...

Welcome Lord Timothy

Do you have a better way of studying the observable universe than the scientific method?

Lord Timothy said...

Certainly, a scientific method that does not rule out possibilities a priori.

Alan Fox said...

Science deals with observable, detectable, measurable phenomena. You can believe in the supernatural etc., you can have religious faith and believe in an afterlife, but science does not address these matters.

The problem arises when the claim is that the supernatural can impinge on the real world. A trivial example would be the spoon-bending charlatanry of Uri Geller, who was famously demonstrated a fraud on the Johnny Carson show. Dembski's version of ID is similarly fraudulent.

Lord Timothy said...

"Science deals with observable, detectable, measurable phenomena. You can believe in the supernatural etc., you can have religious faith and believe in an afterlife, but science does not address these matters."

To outlaw something you must first define it. I find the "supernatural" to be very poorly defined. Design has the potential to be every bit as Empirical as necessary. Design detection is already thought of as scientific, a common example is SETI, and intention is detected in biology all the time, specifically by animal behaviorists. None of these are regarded as "supernatural". This appears to be a double standard, but I will await your explanation.


"Dembski's version of ID is similarly fraudulent."
The example you gave though... as I understood it was supposed to relate to ID supposedly being a supernatural infringement on science... I didn't quite get that out of your example though. (just trying to stay on topic.)

Alan Fox said...

To outlaw something you must first define it. I find the "supernatural" to be very poorly defined.

Yes, I agree. Impossible to define, I would suggest, except in terms of not being observable, detectable or measurable.

Design detection is already thought of as scientific

To avoid straying into semantics, can I suggest the following convention. When talking of design, as in an artifact produced by some known agency, let us use the word design. When talking about "Design", as in some supernatural agency, unspecified but acting in some unspecified way at some unspecified time, let us use the word "Design".

I have no problem with design detection, we and all sentient beings, do it all the time. We live by matching patterns. I have no problem with SETI and the search for evidence of extra-terrestrials.

The problem is when IDers such as Dembski purport to claim to detect the supernatural (interventions by the "Intelligent Designer") and to represent this as science. There is no double standard when you avoid confusing design and "Design".

The example you gave though... as I understood it was supposed to relate to ID supposedly being a supernatural infringement on science...

No. ID claims that there are observable effects from supernatural agencies. This is fraudulent nonsense. ID cannot support this claim. There is nothing supernatural going on, just fraud.

Lord Timothy said...

"When talking about "Design", as in some supernatural agency, unspecified but acting in some unspecified way at some unspecified time, let us use the word "Design"." So being unspecified would qualify as being supernatural?

"The problem is when IDers such as Dembski purport to claim to detect the supernatural (interventions by the "Intelligent Designer") and to represent this as science. There is no double standard when you avoid confusing design and "Design"."

I don't think that Dembski et al use "poof" as their particular mechanism. I am sure you are farmiliar with front loaded evolution are you not? If the designer has intervened and we can check to see if there was such an intervention, why not?

"No. ID claims that there are observable effects from supernatural agencies."
Maybe, but the agency still does not have to be supernatural. Of course if you get into that, why can't supernatural agencies have natural effects? If certain supernatural agencies actually exist, then there would inevitably be natural effects. I would say, ID does not need the supernatural to exist, but rather does not rule it out a priori like methodological naturalism.

"There is nothing supernatural going on, just fraud."

I don't think this is a claim that should be made by anyone who wants to keep science and religion seperate.

Alan Fox said...

"There is nothing supernatural going on, just fraud."

I don't think this is a claim that should be made by anyone who wants to keep science and religion seperate.


ID is either not science or scientifically vacuous. Whilst there may be many who are swayed by the arguments of Behe and Dembski, it is quite obvious that both were religiously motivated, and neither are inclined to develop or defend their ideas as scientific against the many reasonable critiques that have been produced.

Not being resident in the US, I have no interest in the religion/science Church/State issue, only an intellectual curiosity as to whether ID had any merit as an idea, and as time goes on, the likelihood of anything useful emerging from the ID camp approaches zero.

Lord Timothy said...

"ID is either not science or scientifically vacuous. Whilst there may be many who are swayed by the arguments of Behe and Dembski, it is quite obvious that both were religiously motivated,"

How so? And do you think it is fair to judge someone's contributions based on someone elses claim to know their motivation? Or could this be an ad homenim meant to draw attention away from the actual arguments and discussion?

"and neither are inclined to develop or defend their ideas as scientific against the many reasonable critiques that have been produced."

Here I have to disagree, Behe(for example) has made numerous attempts to publish responses and has a lot of correspondence with science journals, and scientists, etc.
http://www.trueorigin.org/behe07.asp
of course a better collection of responses can be found here http://arn.org/authors/behe.html under the response to critics section.



"Not being resident in the US, I have no interest in the religion/science Church/State issue, only an intellectual curiosity as to whether ID had any merit as an idea, and as time goes on, the likelihood of anything useful emerging from the ID camp approaches zero."

I would disagree yet again. Now that the media spot light has been dimmed, more research is able to be done without huge public controversies and court hearings over every sneeze that IDists make. (On the other hand, it seems many in the scientific community are still watching ID scientists very closely, but that is to be expected.)

Alan Fox said...

Or could this be an ad homenim meant to draw attention away from the actual arguments and discussion?

You are right, "because your motivation is religious, your scientific argument is bogus" is an ad hominem ( or would be if ID had a scientific argument). Pleas feel free to present ID's scientific argument, as the whole issue revolves around whether ID has any such argument. I promise I will not draw attention from it. I fact, if you like I will make it the subject of a new thread.

Behe(for example) has made numerous attempts to publish responses and has a lot of correspondence with science journals, and scientists, etc.

But in his anniversary edition of "Darwin's Black Box" he has changed neither a word of text, nor included an appendix dealing with the mountain of critiques that have been produced since 1996 (not to speak of the ongoing research over that same period). Charles Darwin, in contrast, took pains to respond to critics in later editions of "Origin of Species.

Now that the media spot light has been dimmed, more research is able to be done without huge public controversies and court hearings over every sneeze that IDists make.

Please, please, please tell us about this research. The evidence for any such research existing or in progress would be most welcome.

On the other hand, it seems many in the scientific community are still watching ID scientists very closely, but that is to be expected.

Of course. Fundamentalist religious apologetics fraudulently posing as scientific endeavour needs to be watched closely.